Relentless

Jon Perry  00:08

Tim Grover clearly does not like to be number two, because he has 13 number ones. Good morning. I’m Jon Perry, the Reach Architect together with

 

Derek Egeberg  00:18

Derek Egeberg. The Approval Coach, good morning.

 

Jon Perry  00:20

And this is the Master Mind Library where we rapidly like to get other perspectives upon some great books of knowledge so that we can increase our own knowledge and viability and grow in this world. And the book this morning is relentless by Tim Grover,

 

Derek Egeberg  00:37

Great book. So I know it when you say type a high D personality versus a, S and C, this book very much written for the type A high D personality. So let’s get this out of the way for the Master Mind Library. Is it? Top shelf? You know, is it 1, 2, 3 4? Mine? This is a top shelf book. This is one of my top 13. Jon, where does it fall for you?

 

Jon Perry  01:06

I think it’s the third shelf, or maybe a second shelf, but I’m pretty sure it’s a third shelf. I’m just too sensitive.

 

Derek Egeberg  01:15

You’re a very sensitive guy. So but again, it’s not to add or detract. It’s just some personalities gravitate to it more, some don’t. So, top 13 For me, partly because it’s Look, I just want to know what the mindset is. And let’s get after it. You like the story and you like the the fictitiously weaved through metaphor like with and how are you saying, like Andy Andrews style

 

Jon Perry  01:52

Doesn’t always have to be that way, I can still get a lot of good nuggets out of him, I just don’t have to dial the intensity up to a 12 way past 11. It’s at a 12. And I see more than just the scope of the book, I understand that he’s trying to display the “Mamba Mentality”, or the the winning at all cost mentality. And that’s not how I want to play the game. And so I can see that this is a direct line for those people. It’s just not necessarily my direct line for how I want to achieve what I deem as successful. I’m not going to have six rings. I’m not going to have one ring. I’m going to be in the stands watching the game play sometimes. And that’s okay with me.

 

Derek Egeberg  02:46

See, here’s what’s in I love the perspective. Jon, how many companies do you own? Three? Okay, so what do you mean, you’re not gonna have six rings, you have three companies that you’re running with employees and all three. So it’s that. And what I love about how Tim mentioned it is it’s the janitor. It’s the guy as when he identifies three main types of people. And he calls them his coolers, his closer, and his cleaner. And the cleaner as the top guy, the Michael Jordan, the Kobe Bryant, the person who just cleans up other people’s messes, doesn’t have to talk about it doesn’t even need to call attention to himself or herself just shush up and do it. What’s interesting is, Jon, you’re running three companies. So when you say you’re not going to have six rings, you got half that many rings when it comes to your environment. And so I think for me, I saw a lot of everybody should be taking away the tools and tips in the book, because everybody has something that they need to be excellent at whether it’s is it print, is it mortgage, is it insurance, is it being a firefighter is it being a school teacher, everybody needs to or should be the absolute best of the best if they want to practice at it daily. And you’ve seen online some of the videos where the Kobe Bryant work ethic where there’s a interview a reporter that gets the chance to interview Kobe, and Kobe says be at the gym at x time and he wasn’t really sure if that was morning or or evening. But he then figured out it was morning so he was going to beat Kobe to the gym. So he showed up 30 minutes or 45 minutes earlier than than the time but the lights were already on and Kobe was already in the gym, sweaty and already you know well into his workout. Nobody knew or at least I didn’t as a fan watching these. That those are the kind of work ethics that that some of these People have. And so you know, you go back to that janitor, the story that Tim mentions, the janitors working on cleaning and doing everything quietly without any fanfare, just doing his job or her job to the best of their ability. But I love the analogy that the janitor the cleaner, has the keys to every room can go in and out, unobstructed, but just doesn’t need to call attention to themselves, just does the job and cleans up other people’s messes. So I really enjoyed this book. This is probably the fourth time we’ve read it. Now I know you brushed up on it. Did you take anything new away from this? The last reading?

 

Jon Perry  05:47

I think again, putting it in context with other things. You know, one of the things he talks about is, you know, the cleaner just does it, which kind of lines the way that it is with Colin Powell is 40-70 rule, which I really like, you know, Colin Powell has said that he won’t make a decision unless he has at least 40% of the information, he will make the decision before he gets 70% of the information. Because at 40%, you just don’t have enough to do anything constructive. And at 70, you pretty much know which way you’re gonna go. You’re just kind of hoping for extra validation or something, you’re kind of stalling for time. So that’s time that can be critically used in other areas. He says that cleaners, typically, we’ll make the decision and go forward with it. Now, I don’t doubt that most of his cleaners do it with 40 to 45% of the information that are given, they’re not waiting even to the 70% mark. They’re just getting enough to just assess the information in Go. And so I that was one of his number ones that I’ve taken into a slightly different perspective and can agree upon in that manner.

 

Derek Egeberg  06:56

You said something one of his number ones, yes. When he gives you a list. Everything is number one, everything is number one there. There isn’t anything that is more or less important. It’s all there and I love that. When you say man, how many times do I make lists and one through 15? Well, I didn’t get to 14 or 15? Because they were farther down the list. No, no. They’re all important. They’re all number ones. Now we’ve used the words cooler, cleaner closer, what did those three things stand for? According to Tim,

 

Jon Perry  07:28

using again, a sports analogy. A cooler could have a good game. Closer could have a great season, maybe you can be an all star. A cleaner is the guy who gets three, four or five, six rings, you know, he uses Michael Jordan, who you can almost argue that he makes Michael Jordan or to Michael Jordan make him as an argument in the profession. He uses Kobe Bryant he uses Dwayne, Dwayne Wade. He references is Steve Kerr. He’s worked with a lot of sports athletes, a lot of basketball players, he named drops, liberally throw in those. And those stories do make, again, doesn’t have to be fictitious. Those stories do help that story that they do backup certain points. They help visualize. Principle.

 

Derek Egeberg  08:24

So he talks he talks a lot about the the just chasing it relentlessly, no pun on the title. But he went to college and got his degree. And his family was going to ask, do you want to be a fitness instructor? Are you going to be a trainer? You know, are you going to run a gym? And he says no, I’m going to train pro athletes. And that had never been done that way before. And so part of his killer be killed mentality was he was going to do this at all cost. And like you say, he went to go work with Michael Jordan. And that turned into this symbiotic relationship that, you know, as you say, did Michael make him did he make Michael did they both really, you know, the synergy between the two, push them to that greatness. And I love listening to some of the stories that happen throughout seasons and pivotal points of maybe it’s a note maybe it’s a mindset and a lot of it is it’s amazing that it’s mindset. It’s not it is don’t get me wrong, it is the physicalness in the training because he talks a lot about making guys sweat and throw up in the trash cans and giving up sugar and having the headache behind the eyes. But it’s that it’s that mindset of any uses the lion analogy, where later on later on, you know, a lion is just a lion and the lion is gonna go out hunt what it’s what it wants, kill what it wants, and then go back to just being a lion. Wait until the next time And, and so this is the first book that I’ve ever read or or heard that talked about that killer instinct and the dark side. And there’s some there’s a lot of dark stuff in the book. Now, was that eye opening to you? Or was that a turnoff to you seeing that side of, of the champion.

 

Jon Perry  10:25

It’s information that I know of I, most of the stuff he talks about is, is in the public eye as far as the dark side and having it there. It’s not something that I personally, the actions are morally not my flavor of life. It’s not something that I would aspire to do. It’s not the secret type of life that I would choose to keep. And yet these scandals, these instances, they are out there, they’ve been out there for decades. You know, most of them involve infidelity. You know, we’ll chamber has slept with her. I don’t know how many women. Saturday Night Live had a great sketch upon it one day where he had a diary, like I think, you know, today I’m gonna write about numbered 975. But to me should always be 322.

 

Derek Egeberg  11:16

I don’t remember that one.

 

Jon Perry  11:18

But there are other stars where they named drop stuff. There’s points where everyone knows that Michael has his personality when he ran the bowls, as the last dance was a great show that actually showed a lot of these things. The book talks about a story where he made a comment to a big man on his team in a championship game, and the guy just completely shut down mentally had the one of the worst games of his postseason career. Because his leader didn’t lead him, he denounced him, and just put them down. And that is an example that Tim used to make a distinction between how Michael chose to be a cleaner and how Kobe ended up choosing to be a cleaner, where you don’t have to always build them up. You don’t always have to break them down. Michael chose to just carry it, you come on my team, I just need four bodies to be legal and play this game. I’m going to win it by myself. Kobe tried to expand that and actually have them be more in place to be the chess master, if you will, to play a different game, because the game had evolved from the Michael era to the Kobe era to what it is. Now. There’s a lot more three pointers in the NBA now than there has ever been. And

 

Derek Egeberg  12:42

yeah, and yet you go back to the Larry Bird story that he talked about, and that’s kind of our era growing up. You know, you watch Larry Bird do the three point contest with his warm up jacket on. And, and that level of cleaner in that day was just the mental. I love it. When Tim talks about how in the locker room he said Larry Bird said, Alright guys, who’s coming in number two? Yeah, there wasn’t even a doubt in his mind. And yet his whole job is to plant seeds of doubt in everybody else.

 

Jon Perry  13:17

The audacity he had is absolutely crazy. And I love hearing the stories about Larry Bird about him being one of the dirtiest trash talkers in the game. Because he doesn’t come across, he seems so unassuming, so quiet. And yet he is an absolute savage on the court hearing the magic and Larry story is not in this book at all. And I don’t want to get off too much on a tangent. It’s just a very fascinating time. Yet, strategically, the three pointer then was not nearly nearly utilized as a weapon as it is. And today the game has evolved it from the Showtime Lakers to the Chicago Bulls to the Kobe Lakers to what it is now and it’s not the same game yet. It’s the same game. This book, though, uses that as a great backdrop, though for his 13 Number one principles and although he didn’t prioritize them, he gave him kind of an idea of priority because he still had them in order of this one. I’m gonna you can read them all at any time. Yeah, these are the ones I’m gonna present first. And these are the ones I’m going to present last.

 

Derek Egeberg  14:19

And and yet here’s what what gets me is why don’t we talk more about and some of the books that you and I have gravitated to it? It’s the principles it’s, you know, Andy Andrews talks about here’s the seven principles that work all the time whether you know they’re in play or not, they’re always working for you. His 13 principles, his 13 things that we need to do not numbered one through 13 But numbered one and one and one and one and yet sometimes it takes that punch in the face whether it’s reading a book or he talks about the Steve Kerr literally a punch in the literally and you know, sometimes we need to see how people react whether it and I’m not saying go punch your staff in the face. But see how people react to that pressure. And so he talks about story that the one time MJ punch Steve Kerr in the face. And then, you know, Steve went in there and continued playing. And Michael called him back and apologized. And from then he knew that Steve would go to battle and go to war with him. And doing a little bit of research, you can see those things evolve. And Steve actually says, that was one of the greatest times in his life, because that changed, where he went, and that that allowed him to go be a leader elsewhere and things like that. So, I mean, again, it’s it’s those pivotal moments that a cooler, is going to sit around the water cooler and just talk about how hard it was or how great it was or how good I used to be. And skip over the the closer to the cleaner, cleaner, just shuts up, cleans it up, fixes it, and moves on. doesn’t need any fanfare, but he’s going to remember what needs to happen next time. And that’s kind of the takeaway for me in the book is that that pivotal moment of the punch in the face? And how do you react? Here we are, is it a good time economically and in the US,

 

Jon Perry  16:19

it is a fascinating time economically, it could be good for some people, it could be bad for some other people.

 

Derek Egeberg  16:25

So we’re talking about inflation, we’re talking about unemployment, things like that. But it’s how you react to those things? And are you going to react like he says a cooler, are you going to get closer, and you step up your game and just be a cleaner and no matter what take care of it. So again, a lot of good life skills. You don’t have to be a pro athlete in my book for the book. But I appreciate Tim actually spending the time to put this in writing.

 

Jon Perry  16:57

I think that, again, most people and I could be wrong, but I think most people played some sort of sport, whether it was peewee soccer, or little league baseball, or football in high school, or track or swimming or, or any of the other types of sports. So they’ve had some level of training or conditioning, and definitely not at the level of a pro NBA player. But I think that most of us can recall some aspect of that training, and having to push through something and having to persevere when we didn’t want to do it. And I think that again, some of his stories and backdrops or some of the things in these challenges, helps frame why his principles are valid, and why they can apply just beyond the sports world.

 

Derek Egeberg  17:46

So when when you first read the book very first time through, and it was a heavy sports book, lot of dark stuff on the backside. How do you take it the first time compared to reading it for I don’t know, fourth, fifth time now.

 

Jon Perry  18:03

The first time I physically read the book, and I thought it was interesting, I did, like the Showtime, Lakers and right into the first round of Michael Jordan era with the bowls, and after the pistons to the bowls. And I was a big NBA fan at the time. And so I was really interesting reading those stories. And I think that those stories is what helped get me through it. I thought that there were some good points. I thought that again, it was a little intense, and I still think it’s intense. I don’t know if I have that level of intensity and I don’t know if that’s the right word. It just seems dialed up to a 12 and I am not the person who likes to be in your face to go over the top to go a little crazy or a little bit. Deep Dive I can be hyper focused. I can what’s the word I’m looking for? It’ll come to me after the thing. So what’s

 

Derek Egeberg  19:08

what’s ironic is I think it’s easy to see it in other people. Go back to the Larry Bird. You and I as spectators didn’t know Larry was anything other than the nice guy playing the game. You know, I’m physical. Don’t get me wrong, very physical or physical. But you never heard about the trash talking. When you and I were watching, you know, Kareem and magic and perish and all those guys on the court. You just saw the Lakers and the Celtics and it was a fun show. But now you see that that killer instinct and again, I’m gonna go back to John, you’re running three companies for crying out loud. You can sit here and pretend you’re the nice guy and the good guy but you’ve fired you’ve changed contracts. You’ve you know, had to rearrange things with equipment. You You’ve played the game am at a level that most people have never played the game at in your industry. But you don’t want to seem like you’ve got the dark side, you don’t want to seem like you have that that intensity as you describe it. But I think it’s easy to see it and other people. But we don’t want really does anybody want to admit that they have those dark? Well, Killer Instinct, I

 

Jon Perry  20:25

probably have a dark side, I probably have a certain level of intensity, I’m not denying that. I don’t think my dark side manifests in the same way that the dark side that was portrayed in the majority of the people in the book manifest. And I think that that’s part of my reasoning or logic is because I don’t step out on my wife, I don’t get let down, get overly physical. And those are two things that in the book they emphasize, as part of being apart. I’m not intentionally mean to people where I chewed them up and spit them out.

 

Derek Egeberg  20:59

Those those couple though, he talks about some people drink, some people gamble. Some people could speed and drive fast. It’s that it’s that chase in the rush. I know you like, you know, comic and artwork and things like that. Have you spent money on a chasing of a piece of artwork or a comic or something like that, that you could have invested that back in the business? Absolutely. So there again, it’s that,

 

Jon Perry  21:28

but I don’t think that’s probably the the dark side. Again, he wants to keep it shrouded. He wants it private. That’s part of what makes him that because he says that the dark side shrivels in the light of day, that’s when a scandal happens. And you see how these people are you he said that he didn’t want somebody to be apologetic for their actions, because that’s what made them the killer instinct. That’s what gave them this, this edge over the people. My art collection is on the walls in my office where I proudly show it for anybody who can walk in my doors, because it is something completely different than what you would see in this town.

 

Derek Egeberg  22:04

And I’m saying that’s kind of your Chase. That’s what drives you. You’re in business for that. So you know, if you need to make 10 more dollars to help fund that, versus are you stressing to put 10 more dollars into your kids is 529 plan for their college, my gut tells me is you have a lot of enthusiasm for that next piece of artwork. We’ll get to this over here.

 

Jon Perry  22:30

And that’s one reason why we do this because that is a perspective I didn’t consider before when analyzing this dark side. You know, if it’s in that vein, then I can concede that I have a dark side is just under light. It’s not quite in the name, but I’m quite and it’s a different perspective. And so there’s there’s a growth moment right now for me, because I can concede that would be a motivator, a driving motivator for doing some of the things I do. The intensity I talked about, maybe it’s because there’s years ago, I was on a jury. And while I still had a couple of companies and the thing about being chemical companies is I can switch hats at a given moment and switch from doing roll eight in this one to Roby in this general CD to this one. At the flip of a switch because Mike manage my own time on jury duty I had to check in in the morning, I had half an hour for lunch and I had another long afternoon. I have a lot of respect to people who have two jobs in two different locations and have to do it two different ways because juggling over that month, it was a murder trial. Juggling over that month coming into my officers tried to get that stuff set up going to jury checking in with the office over lunch break jury duty and then coming into the office at the end of the day to to wrap up more stuff that is challenging, but in and of itself. But

 

Derek Egeberg  23:57

that had to drive you crazy, following the rules and having to sit and do exactly what you’re told, as opposed to in your world

 

Jon Perry  24:07

the freedom to do what I do, right.

 

Derek Egeberg  24:10

So you straddle the line between you know, you’re you’re closer for the most part, and then you have flashes of cleaner isms. Yes. And again, what I what I guess took away from the book is you can see almost everybody in here, and everybody has flashes of it. It’s just a matter of do you want to stoke those flames? Do you want to really build upon that? And look, some people are just happy, punch, punch in the clock, start to finish. And if that’s what you want, great, then the book probably isn’t for you. But if you’re if you want to grow and we’ve read a lot of growth books with the Master Mind Library, you know, there’s lots of mental growth paths. This is one that is is, look, if you want to grow, there’s a mental killer instinct that you need to have as well. No, you’re none of us are going to be Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant. I mean, no matter how much I wanted to be Larry Bird, or Magic Johnson, back in the day, I would have been, you know, worthy or Cooper for crying out loud on the Lakers, no matter how much I wanted to be like those guys, I was never gonna play the game that well. And I sat outside and shot three pointers and practiced all the time. Just didn’t get there. But you can see that everybody, whether it’s in the mortgage space, the print space, the design space, the real estate space, you have the ability to get there and elevate your game. You might need a trainer. And so yes, what I appreciate about Tim is yeah, he’s the physical trainer. But I think he’s as or more so the mental trainer for these guys keeping their mindset in check. And he talks about one person who literally flew across the country. But it wasn’t they didn’t do any ice baths. They didn’t do any working out. It was literally just talking and getting the mindset right, to go back and compete. And for me, that’s what I appreciate most is like, this isn’t motivating me to work out anymore. Although I probably should. This is a mental workout to go. Wow, I can see where Jon Perry is a cleaner versus a closer. I wonder if the same thing happens here. You know, and you really dig into, okay, what needs to be elevated to be more of a cleaner? Good point. So is that point one or point one or point one? So and again. I love that fact that? Look, I’ve been told to put lists together forever. You know whether it’s the old day runner, the journals, the Franklin Covey planners, here’s the lists and identify things nobody’s ever said, Put a bullet point and make them all the same. Nobody’s ever said list them all number one, because they’re all important. It’s always been come up with a list. Man, I look back for the last 25 years how many times that I get to number one or two or three? Or pick the one or two or three that I like out of the list? And unprimed critize the other ones, no, no. If they’re on the list, they’re on the list, get them all done, I’m

 

Jon Perry  27:19

done. So if you can’t get them done today, move them to the top of the list tomorrow.

 

Derek Egeberg  27:25

Or the list for tomorrow, not even the top and that’s what say the mindset of okay, the the killer mentality of watching. And I guess maybe as a as a basketball fan, understanding some of the psychological things that Michael Jordan did, and Kobe Bryant did, and Dwayne Wade did and the growth. And in just that, man, these guys are intense. And I know you don’t like that word, per se.

 

Jon Perry  27:55

It’s not the intensity of it. It’s the when there’s a level of tension that border lines on. And again, he says you don’t have to be nice, and I’m not disagreeing, there are times where you don’t have to be nice. There’s lack of tact. There’s lack of civility. You know, I remember reading about the Dream Team. And Michael Jordan was playing against another dream team and was playing in another country. And on that country, there was a player who also plays on the bowls with Michael Jordan. He says, on the first play, I’m gonna run right through that guy. And he did very first play, ran right through this guy. And I think it was the first game that the Olympics for the Dream Team, and it kind of set the tone for the whole way. Because of this, this is his teammate, a guy he actually likes. And he did this to him. What’s that saying for the other random people? You know? That’s an amazing head game. That’s a fantastic chess move. I don’t know if I would want to make a move such as that in my career. I don’t know if I want to drop some knowledge out there, or frame a situation that would play the mind games in my industry, the way that he plays in that one, and may you know, because it wouldn’t be hard to do. You know, we all are. We all are flawed creatures. We all have things we can grow. We all made mistakes in the past.

 

Derek Egeberg  29:35

Wait a minute, are you saying everybody has this dark side and we’re flawed and we do make the mistakes? Yet? There’s a lot of people who don’t want to admit them don’t want to

 

Jon Perry  29:46

realize, Well, the thing is, we all have them. I will freely admit a lot of them myself, because it’s very humbling to recall the times where I messed up and to show that I am human, and I don’t Mind that the main thing is, is having somebody else point out something to me that I would freely, you know, in a way that is demeaning or less, you know, somebody saying that are worth the quality work we do isn’t as professional or that, you know, we don’t qualify as a design company because of XY or Z thing or, you know, so there’s those aspects of it that I don’t necessarily feel the need to play to, you know, against them. If I know of certain things, there’s no need to parade that when they do amazing work to.

 

Derek Egeberg  30:41

And yet, for everybody’s benefit, what you literally just said, is, you don’t have to talk about it, you’re going to go play your game, yes, no matter what, which is, his definition of the cleaner is, you don’t have to talk about it. You don’t have to go be vocal about it. You just have to shush up and do it and know your work stands on its own. And, and that’s again, what I appreciate about the book is, you know, we’ve heard the term from good to great, and that was a really intense book,

 

Jon Perry  31:13

the it was a really dry book.

 

Derek Egeberg  31:15

And and when you say from good to great to unstoppable. Man, the guys that he talks about in the book, are legitimately all unstoppable legends yet, and yet, look, they had they lost. There’s lots of losing games, it’s not that they won 100% of the time. No, the unstoppable bonus is are you willing to run through your analogy? Are you willing to run through the competition? Are you willing to run through the obstacles? And are you going to win more than you lose? And when you lose, are you going to get up and figure out how to fight through the pain, or the stress or the struggles.

 

Jon Perry  31:52

The one thing I can appreciate about him in this book is as a trainer, it’s, again, this is also equal endorsement for if you’re in business, get a coach, find a mentor. Because he mentioned that when something happened with Kobe during a training, he caught something, he caught that Kobe did a turnover. Nobody else would have gotten this in the same way. And he goes, dang, I messed up, I did not prepare prepare him for this scenario. This is on me, he took accountability for this one instance, he, because he didn’t prepare Kobe coming back from whatever this training was for him to come back from that he didn’t take into consideration this type of scenario. And Kobe couldn’t react to it in the way that was beneficial to Kobe. So I can appreciate that. He took accountability for himself and the mistakes he made. And he said that he’s going to learn, the main thing is he’s not going to stop doing stuff, he is not going to just rest on his laurels. And be I look at what I accomplished with who I accomplished with how are you going to question me? No, he’s going to make people do the work. He’s also doing the work, though, to make sure that they are at the peak of their, whatever they can be. So get a coach.

 

Derek Egeberg  33:15

So get a coach, but have a coach who is willing to grow alongside with you again, that again, I love that story where he’s talking about his growth, his accountability and his willing to admit the mistake and go not make it a second time. Again, really a great book, good book, there’s a lot of concepts in there that we all need to implement, if we choose to. You might debate whether it’s good or bad to embrace the dark side or not whether you can be that intense. But it’s so funny that we all sit on the couch on a Saturday or Sunday and watch the game we all want to go to the stadium and yell and scream for for our heroes on the field, if you will around the court. Yet, do we understand the amount of work that goes in beyond the 90 minutes that we’re watching? And I don’t think many people realize the amount of work and the intensity level that some of these guys have gone through,

 

Jon Perry  34:22

you know, because I’ll end up with this one around my round. There’s a lot of people in the book that towards the end that he talks about that, you know, do you want to have, ultimately, their choices? Do you want to have an extra year? Or do you want to have an extra five years? Do you want to sacrifice a little for the next five years knowing that these are problems that may persist in 10 or 15 years physically to you? What are you willing to give up in the short term for the long term? Or what are you willing to give up in the long term to push through something in the short term? Those are questions I think everybody has in business And we all have to make those decisions that whether they are short term beneficial long term, detrimental vice versa. Very rarely do we have a win win win win scenario, we have to figure out what is most important and prioritize that as number one of ones and go after it.

 

Derek Egeberg  35:22

And it’s interesting the way you phrase that, because when you say, the when, when when, you know, are you looking short, mid long term. If you have a lot of physical ailments, and you’re in pain for the next 20 years after the career, let’s say, and I don’t have any knowledge of this, but let’s say Michael Jordan is physically in pain, Magic Johnson is physically in pain now for having a long successful career. Do they mentally look back at and go? Oh, I did that. Or do they go? Man, I really wish I wouldn’t have done that my knees are killing me. My guess is all of those cleaners. Love the fact that they’ve done that. And they they’ve accepted the fact that I mean, you look at Kobe Bryant’s finger, he had a finger that would go any which way, just because and he’s willing to deal with that. Just because of the love of the competition in the game. I would, I would submit that they don’t view it as a well, I’m winning here for losing here. It’s all part and parcel to the same thing because they want to look back when they’re 95 years old. Go, dude, I did that. I did that. And their record stands for themselves not unlike, you know, any of the greats. And sometimes they’re willing to sacrifice. We see it as sacrifice. They don’t you look at Tom Brady, Tom Brady drinks, nothing but water, you know, has his water is not getting off of his regimen, because he has a different level of accountability to himself. Not to say you can’t go have a lot to drink. But that one day off his schedule you and I might be like, Ah, it’s one day. And he may say but that puts me 45 days behind because I gotta go redo x. So again, some of the stories that are even not in the book that you can pay attention to and see what’s happening out in the marketplace. Love the fact that Tim Grover put the book together love the fact that this is probably the fourth fifth time I’ve I’ve read and or listen to the book. Do you like reading the book? Or do you like listening to Tim better as the author,

 

Jon Perry  37:35

the terms not the narrator of the book,

 

Derek Egeberg  37:38

I should say listening to the author read in I liked.

 

Jon Perry  37:42

I like the narrator of the book. The latest edition has on Audible has in between chapters. Like a sit down with his agent about the chapter coming up. And Tim’s got a really interesting voice. It’s a little raspy. It’s a cool voice. I like his voice I don’t know if

 

Derek Egeberg  38:10

but that’s him saying did that add to the book,

 

Jon Perry  38:13

it didn’t really add to the book because I may because I’ve listened to so many times maybe because we’ve talked about it before. Maybe because I have some different perspectives on it. It just doesn’t add a ton to it. For me. It’s a good book though. I like the convenience of of audible and the car University mentality of it

 

Derek Egeberg  38:31

all. So you have both iPhone in and audio. And I always try to have a physical

 

Jon Perry  38:35

copy. Because the physical one for me makes a great reference, it’s very difficult to quickly rapidly find something on the audio version, whereas I can book I could quickly flip through some pages and be like, here, here, this is where it’s at. I can I can I can highlight things I can pull stuff out quickly and easily for digesting. I like the audio, the audio for referencing. And I reference my library. I like the physical so I usually have both on hand.

 

Derek Egeberg  39:01

Okay. So you know, part of it is is the Master Mind Library. We have our shelves and where we believe that fits within the shelf. But there’s also a level two because it’s not just a shelf. Yes. If you talked about mindset and drive and growth. Is this a great book to go pick up?

 

Jon Perry  39:22

I think it would be I would recommend this book to people. Absolutely. It’s the thumbs up two thumbs up for me to read it. I think that just because it’s not, you know, made cookie cutter perfect into my world doesn’t mean I can’t get value from it. And I did. And I think the other people will equally get value from it as well. If you’re a basketball fan, from the 90s to the early 2000s. I think you’ll be fascinated by the stories that are brought into play in the book. luck. And so I would recommend you.

 

Derek Egeberg  40:05

Again, I think the best way to put it is the top 13 shelf better never, ever get dusty. This is one of those books that’s never gonna get dusty on, on my perspective, I would, I would strongly suggest everybody get a copy of it and read it at least once. But I think if you if you take away the man, I don’t want to be that dark or man, this is a little beyond my comfort zone. You can see that in everybody. Whether it’s the underwriter here in my office, you know, she needs to be a cleaner as an underwriter and be the one who mama bears that thing all the way through. And she’s not going to need anything from anybody. Whether you’re the graphic designer within your shop, you want them to be the person who’s in control of it. And they don’t need to dish that ball to anybody else they want to run with it. So I would strongly suggest everybody go get a copy one of my top 13 And I’m so appreciative of Tim for writing the book.

 

Jon Perry  41:04

Now, we’d love to hear back from you. So drop us a line, email. If there’s a place to do comments below, comment below. We’d love to get your perspective on the book as well, so that we can see exactly other ways of viewing it. What did you enjoy about this book? What would you have questions about? Is there something else out there that references that he references that you want to bring to light? Leave a message below or drop us a line? MMLibrary.com and let us know. But yeah, thank you for joining us today. I’m Jon Perry, the Reach Architect

 

Derek Egeberg  41:40

and I’m Derek Egeberg. The Approval Coach Have a great day everyone. Look forward to your comments below. Bye for now.